Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Non blue haze finishes
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43510		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed May 21, 2014 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Non blue haze finishes
Well, I've got to reconsider my finish on these coco guitars. I love EM 6000, but I want a true water white finish with no blue. Ideas?

I am considering nitro, though not water white, love it's warmth and workability.

Mike
Author:  Colin North [ Thu May 22, 2014 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Enduro-Var.
I like the slight amber tint, and it's great to work with.
6000 I've not used (can't get here) but I believe the blue tint is dealt with by keeping the individual coats thin.
Author:  guitarjtb [ Thu May 22, 2014 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Colin North wrote:
Enduro-Var.
I like the slight amber tint, and it's great to work with.
6000 I've not used (can't get here) but I believe the blue tint is dealt with by keeping the individual coats thin.



Is this the one?

https://generalfinishes.com/professiona ... enduro-var

Which did you use, the flat, satin, semi-glaoss, or gloss. Spray or brush? Pictures?

I tried Polywhey and the finish was wheey too blhue in sunlight. I love nitro, but can't use it.

James
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Thu May 22, 2014 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
I use Enduro-Var for kitchen cabinets. It looks more like an oil based finish than other WB products.

Alex
Author:  B. Howard [ Thu May 22, 2014 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Most WB finishes are going to have a bluish cast over darker woods. That's just the chemistry of things. Nitro is one option, but as you know not water white. For a truly water white coating you will need to look at catalyzed lacquers (either pre or post cat systems) or a two part urethane. Make sure you use the system specific sealer if you decide to go one of these routes. Keep in mind that a maximum of 5 mils dry film build is all you are allowed with these. Putting them down thicker will lead to issues and film failure.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Thu May 22, 2014 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Research KTM-SV .... it's been talked about here in the past. (Water based NON-acrylic varnish, so no blue)
Author:  kencierp [ Thu May 22, 2014 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
I know of one high end maker that has been using "General Finishes" Enduro amber tinted varnish for the last two years.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu May 22, 2014 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
James Burkett wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Enduro-Var.
I like the slight amber tint, and it's great to work with.
6000 I've not used (can't get here) but I believe the blue tint is dealt with by keeping the individual coats thin.



Is this the one?

https://generalfinishes.com/professiona ... enduro-var

Which did you use, the flat, satin, semi-glaoss, or gloss. Spray or brush? Pictures?

I tried Polywhey and the finish was wheey too blhue in sunlight. I love nitro, but can't use it.

James

Yes, General Finishes, Enduro-Var I tried the gloss, sprayed, pictures here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40344&hilit=monster#p529933
A more close up of my OLF SJ's back after buffing here download/file.php?id=39223

Yes Ken, I believe you may be talking about Laurent Brondel
I posted previously that Laurent Brondel had been using it on his Essentials range, his comments in this thread, close to the bottom of the page. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285606&page=3
There's a Brondel build pics here with Enduro-Var finish http://lblutherie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/1 ... ascar.html
I didn't see a hint of blue tinge anywhere, his or mine.
As I said before it seems 6000 (and other WB) coats should be sprayed relatively thin to prevent the blue haze.
Mine were a maximum 2 mill thick, wet coat.

_________________
“
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu May 22, 2014 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Colin North wrote:
James Burkett wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Enduro-Var.
I like the slight amber tint, and it's great to work with.
6000 I've not used (can't get here) but I believe the blue tint is dealt with by keeping the individual coats thin.



Is this the one?

https://generalfinishes.com/professiona ... enduro-var

Which did you use, the flat, satin, semi-glaoss, or gloss. Spray or brush? Pictures?

I tried Polywhey and the finish was wheey too blhue in sunlight. I love nitro, but can't use it.

James

Yes, General Finishes, Enduro-Var I tried the gloss, sprayed, pictures here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40344&hilit=monster#p529933
A more close up of my OLF SJ's back after buffing here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/down ... p?id=39223

Yes Ken, I believe you may be talking about Laurent Brondel
I posted previously that Laurent Brondel had been using it on his Essentials range, his comments in this thread, close to the bottom of the page. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285606&page=3
There's a Brondel build pics here with Enduro-Var finish http://lblutherie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/1 ... ascar.html
I didn't see a hint of blue tinge anywhere, his or mine.
As I said before it seems 6000 (and other WB) coats should be sprayed relatively thin to prevent the blue haze.
Mine were a maximum 2 mill thick, wet coat.

_________________
“



I will look at this tonight, I cannot see AGF photos at work. :(

Mike :)
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu May 22, 2014 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
B. Howard wrote:
Most WB finishes are going to have a bluish cast over darker woods. That's just the chemistry of things. Nitro is one option, but as you know not water white. For a truly water white coating you will need to look at catalyzed lacquers (either pre or post cat systems) or a two part urethane. Make sure you use the system specific sealer if you decide to go one of these routes. Keep in mind that a maximum of 5 mils dry film build is all you are allowed with these. Putting them down thicker will lead to issues and film failure.


Could you please specifiy actual, obtainable products? And, by "post" I assume you mean UV, eg?

Thanks!

Mike
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu May 22, 2014 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
I have found with em6000 the mill gauge is your friend. Makeall the wet coats around 3 mills and it still flows out without blue that I can see. I spray about 15 coats on the back, with almost no need to level.
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu May 22, 2014 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
I have used KTM-SV and it is a good looking finish with no blue tint. It does not burn in coat to coat, so there is no fudge room for how level the surface is. If you sand through the last coat you will see witness lines. They do almost buff out ...
Author:  Colin North [ Fri May 23, 2014 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
That's one of the good things about my experience with Enduro-Var, any witness lines appearing after sanding just vanished with buffing.
Same with any CA fills/fixes. Scrape level, sand and buff.
I can't say how refinishing/touch-ups after a long time will be, but I refinished the headstock 5/6 weeks after spraying (sanded through), and it just buffed in nicely with the original finish on the neck.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri May 23, 2014 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
What is the difference between pre- and post-cat varnishes?
Author:  johnparchem [ Fri May 23, 2014 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
pre the manufacture incorporates the catalyst at the point of manufacturing. Limits the shelf life.

Post the requires the addition of the catalyst after the manufacturing of the finish. Once added the clock starts ticking on the shelf life. Still a month or so of shelf life.

conversion varnish catalyst added at time of use by end user.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sat May 24, 2014 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Most pre cats I have dealt with had a shelf life of 90 days. There is no chemistry to mess with as the supplier has added the catalyst. Post cat you mix what you need as you need it. Generally once the catalyst is added you will have a pot life of something like 2-6 hours depending on brand and type to use the material.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat May 24, 2014 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Since the Enduro types do not burn into each other, how many coats to achieve desired thickness, and how much time between coats? Should I use an Enduro sealer over the epoxy level & pore fill?
Author:  Colin North [ Sat May 24, 2014 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
There is a finishing thread here with a schedule http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?102732-Enduro-var-my-new-refinish-experience
There was a recommended schedule from some "experts" mentioned somewhere through Gen Finishes website I can't find at the moment. something like sealing with a couple of coats of EV, sanding flat, the 3 coats, 1 hr between each, then level. Repeat, leave for a week and then level sand to P 1500, buff merzena med and fine, I'll see if I can find it later.

IIRC, schedule I used was 2 coats 1 lb cut shellac first (wiped on) over a z-epoxy pore fill (B & S + Rosette only)
Two coats EV 1 hour between them, then leave 3 hours and level sand dry to P400
Then 3 coats EV diluted with 5-10% alcohol, leave a couple of hours between coats, leave overnight.
Again level sand P400 dry.
Then another 3 coats EV diluted with 5-10% alcohol, leave a couple of hours between coats, leave at least a week (I had to wait a month because I was away working)
I level sanded starting P400 up to P1500 dry, then buffed merzena medium/fine/extra fine.
Each coat of EV was about 2.5-3 mil wet
Now, I will say actually I did more coats than this schedule due to a bit of playing about because I had problems setting up my new gun for the first time and getting the feel of sanding the enduro-var (it goes really quite easily) but I reckon the number of final coats were about 8-9 max total.
Hope that is of some use, google search may turn up more suggestion?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sat May 24, 2014 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Wow. All those coats and level sanding. And u never sanded through a layer?
Author:  Colin North [ Sun May 25, 2014 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Mike O'Melia wrote:
Wow. All those coats and level sanding. And u never sanded through a layer?

Mike, perhaps you misunderstood?
2 coats, sand, 3 coats, sand level, 3 coats, wait 1 week, sand level/buff. So 3 x sandings.
And yes, I sanded through layers (this was my first time gloss finishing)
Even during the final sanding.
Witness lines - Yes, I had several quite obvious ones, and thought it was a disaster at first.
But when I buffed, the witness lines vanished.
Even with a magnifying glass in all light conditions I just could not find any.
As i said earlier, even a headstock finish repair done in exasperation 5/6 weeks after the supposedly final coats were blended in with a light sand P800/1000 and buffing medium/fine compounds. No witness lines.
Maybe a bit of heat from buffing helped?? idunno
Author:  CharlieT [ Sun May 25, 2014 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Colin, thanks for sharing your experience with the Enduro-Var. Apologies if you have answered this already and I missed it, but how hard have you found the Enduro-Var to be? I seem to remember you commenting a while back that it felt a bit soft when tested with a finger nail. What are your thoughts now after using the product for a while?
Author:  Colin North [ Sun May 25, 2014 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Hi Charlie. I remember that.
Yes at the time I was a little disappointed, but the finish was only a couple of months old, and the spruce on the top could be dented with a firm fingernail.
Bit silly really, but on reflection there was only a maximum of maybe 3/3.5 thou of finish after buffing.
I sold the guitar a couple of months ago, but checked it again after 6 or 8 months from buffing - I could drag a fingernail back and forwards over the finish without it leaving a scratch.
If you use my link above to see Laurent's comments on it, he says
Quote:
On my Essentials I have been using General Finishes EnduroVar, a urethane waterbased varnish that is absolutely excellent, and harder than any oil varnish I know of.

I know varnish is not exactly renowned for its hardness, but that can't be bad.
I may not be able to rely on my own tiny experience with finishes, but I have the utmost respect for Laurent Brondel's.
Author:  CharlieT [ Sun May 25, 2014 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Thanks Colin, that's good to hear. I missed that comment from Laurent so thank you for posting it. I just ordered a quart of the Enduro-Var gloss on Amazon so I can give it a try. Thanks again for the info.
Author:  Colin North [ Sun May 25, 2014 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Sorry I can't be of more help, and good luck. [:Y:]
Author:  CharlieT [ Sun May 25, 2014 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non blue haze finishes
Colin North wrote:
Sorry I can't be of more help, and good luck. [:Y:]

You've been very helpful, Colin. Much appreciated. 8-)
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/